Mustafa Santiago Ali, Executive Vice President for the National Wildlife Federation and Former U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Official, joins Yahoo Finance Live to discuss rail safety following multiple high-profile train derailments.
- Another Norfolk Southern train derailing this afternoon. This time in Alabama, while the company's CEO Alan Shore testified before the Senate Committee on environment and public works. Today's hearing was intended to discern the impact of last month's disaster on the community of East Palestine, Ohio, a devastating impact according to EPA Regional Administrator Debra Shore. Let's listen.
DEBRA SHORE: I've personally been in East Palestine listening to residents and have heard how devastating this derailment has been. They are understandably worried, and some are scared. And every time a train whistle blows, they're reminded of the trauma inflicted upon them by Norfolk Southern. That's why we've used one of EPA's most powerful enforcement tools to hold Norfolk Southern accountable and to require the company to clean up the mess it made.
I want to be abundantly clear. The residents of the Greater East Palestine community are not alone. EPA is with them and will continue to be with them for as long as it takes.
- With us now to discuss the kinds of hazardous materials being transported on our nation's railways and their effects on the environment is executive vice president of the National Wildlife Federation and former EPA official Mustafa Santiago Ali. Nice to see you, sir. This is a concerning trend.
Where do you focus first? Is it with the federal government? Is it with the industry and regulation, or is it with Norfolk Southern?
MUSTAFA SANTIAGO ALI: I think we have to do all three simultaneously because we understand that everyone has a role to play. And that if we don't make sure the right regulations are in place, if we don't make sure the right inspections are happening, then we continue to see Norfolk Southern having problems with derailments that are going on. We also have to make sure that the federal government is moving forward to tighten those statutes, those regulations to make sure that people's lives are being protected.
And as we heard earlier, both the mental health and the physical health and then, of course, we also have to pay particular attention also to the wealth that's being lost in communities that are dealing with these hazardous chemical disasters. So we have to make sure that we're doing all three so that we don't leave a gap in the process.
SEANA SMITH: And, Mustafa, take a look at some of the chemicals that were traveling on this train, it includes highly toxic chemicals, like vinyl chloride. Talk to us just about the risk that this poses to residents and just how toxic, how dangerous some of these chemicals that are traveling all over the country.
MUSTAFA SANTIAGO ALI: Yeah. Well, vinyl chloride has been a lot, you know, in the news, and people have been learning more about it. It can cause trouble breathing, irregular heartbeats, brain, liver, and lung cancer if you have long-term sets of exposures to it.
And then when you end up burning, as you saw with the control burn that happened there in East Palestine, you have to deal with things like hydrogen chloride. That can also irritate the skin, the nose, the eyes of throat, the larynx, various things there. But there are also other things that folks haven't talked enough about, like phosgene.
Phosgene is also a part burning that often happens. And at low levels, it can be very, very dangerous. It actually smells like hay, for those who've ever been around the cutting of hay, and it's very corrosive to the lungs. It can irritate the eyes, and there's breathing difficulties.
So when you hear residents there sharing about some of the impacts that they have going on, it's in alignment with some of the impacts that we know these chemicals can have. And then, of course, dioxin is one of those toxic chemicals that scares everyone. And it's a part of a burning process, and it can literally cause cancer. So we have to listen to what communities are saying. We've got to make sure that the testing continues to happen, to help them to understand any changes that they may be seeing in their health.
- Of course, these chemicals have been transported on our nation's rails for as long as there have been around. How much transparency should there be to the towns that they're passing through? And is there any other way, Mustafa, to get these chemicals to their desired location?
MUSTAFA SANTIAGO ALI: What we have to make, you know, our transportation as safe as possible. Most folks may not know that we've got 140,000 miles of railway, 100,000 folks in rural communities. Those communities are made up of lower-wealth white communities, and farmers, and Indigenous brothers and sisters, and communities of color. So we've got to make sure that folks have a clear understanding of what's moving through their backyards or front yards, in some instances, and what the dangers could be.
With all that transportation that's actually happening, there have been studies that have shown that about 25% million people are in these blast zones that if, you know, one of these things actually exploded. So we've got to just make sure that there is transparency and clear information that is shared in a way that everyday people can wrap their minds around so they can make the best decisions for what they want to push for. Hopefully, it's in stronger protections and regulations to keep folks safe.
SEANA SMITH: Mustafa, how do you think the EPA has handled this so far? On the one hand, the EPA saying that they are getting out in front of it. They are doing everything they can. They are going to hold Norfolk Southern financially responsible. On the flip side, critics were saying that they were too slow to respond. What do you think?
MUSTAFA SANTIAGO ALI: Well, I've heard about that, I've worked in over 1,000 communities across our country and a few outside. EPA was actually on the ground I believe in about four hours. So that's a pretty good response time. So that's important to get on the ground.
The other part of it is making sure that you have individuals there, hopefully, who can share information in a way that folks can understand it. And you've got to make sure that you stay consistent with what's being shared, making sure that you're also open to new possibilities and sharing with people all the various possibilities that might exist in that space. And sometimes that's an area that most definitely needs to be improved. And it causes people to have concerns.
So one, they were on the ground quickly. Two, you got to make sure you have those trusted voices with the information. Three, there has to be very consistent sets of actions, and openings, and information for folks to feel comfortable that you are there in a very positive way to support them.
- Hate to put you on the spot, but we're just learning of this additional derailment in West Virginia. This is the company CSX, an unknown amount of diesel fuel and oil released into a portion of one of our oldest rivers, part of the National Park Service. Do much about that? And are there more derailments right now, or are we just-- are they being brought to our attention more so than in the past?
MUSTAFA SANTIAGO ALI: Well, I think that we're paying much more attention. We know that there are studies that have shown we've had about 1,700 derailments over the last five years. Now that doesn't mean that they had hazardous chemicals on them.
I actually grew up in Appalachia. We had a derailment when I was a kid. And we have all these other chemicals that are also a part of it. Like you mentioned, you have oil. You have these byproducts that are also there.
I just got an alert about this particular derailment that's happened. And there can be huge impacts, depending on what the chemicals that are being carried. We lost wildlife there in East Palestine.
We've now got folks who have all these different types of health challenges that they have identified. And this is another area of a vulnerable community, an environmental justice community, if you will. These are the places that are often unseen and unheard. These are the places that are dis invested in.
These are the places that also, lots of times, our sets of legislation, our regulations often aren't giving enough consideration to. So we'll have to unpack exactly what's happened here, what the exposure pathways are. But we've got to do a better job of making sure that we're protecting rural communities across our country, and make sure that their voices are being heard, both in the design of protections, but also in what should be the sets of options when something like this happens, and also making sure their voices are helping to frame out these emergency teams that are put together, and making sure there are individuals who have backgrounds in these areas so that they can share language, share information in a way that is best received.
- Hopefully, today's hearing has that impact. Mustafa, really appreciate you being here. Thanks so much.
