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Welcome to living not so fabulous. So David, I was thinking if we had $1 every time someone told us that nonprofit work doesn't pay, we would have fat retirement accounts,

right? It seems like culturally, the LGBT community and, and maybe even the broader population, they're OK with this idea that if someone decides to serve a community.That they don't deserve any sort of financialbenefit.

Well, today's we're bus busting that myth wide open with our guests who figured out how to do good and save smart. Amy Harkle wrote,

she's proof that you can lead with heart, serve a community, and still retire with some money in your bag.Amy Harkleroad went from underfunded nonprofits to leading the Hetrick Martin Institute, championing LGBTQ youth. As CEO, she is proving nonprofit leaders can build financial security while making a difference.

When she's not advocating, she's finding ways to make every single dollar count. Welcome to the show, Amy.

Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate being

here, for sure. So reflecting on your early career in teaching and in small nonprofit work, what financial challenges did you face personally?

Um, yeah, thank you for asking. I think in starting in the nonprofit career and especially as a teacher at a Catholic school in southern Arizona, um, I was making well below the poverty line geographically from where I was living. And so, um, had obviously not entered into that type of work because I had dreams ofHuge, huge salaries. But, uh, you know, I think the other big piece of it is when you work for a smaller organization, small nonprofit, small school district, you also, those places aren't often resourced to educate on how to start saving for retirement, often don't have the matches that are available to some folks in corporate environments. So it's a lot of figuring out on your own much of the time.

Right. When you were growing up, uh, did your parents talk about finance? Did you get any financial education in school? Did you have any resources that you could lean into since that wasn't necessarily being provided by your employers?

Yeah, I did. I was very fortunate that my, my dad was also a social worker, so he kind of understood, but had done a ton of work later in his career to understand how I could save, how I could start putting away. But when you're 20-something, late teens, early 20-somethings, your parents telling you anything is the most ridiculous thing that could ever be said. So, um, I probably did. I knew it, but I didn't, you know, I kind of didn't listen to it. And my peers certainly weren't talking about it.

Right.How did those how did you, when you arrived at that point in your life where it was now time for you to take charge and you didn't have the money, how did that make you feel?

Um, I felt really, really trapped and got really anxious about things, and so that could be anything fromSomething breaks in the house and and and how are you going to fix it, car issues, and when you work in social service organizations, um, feeling not that different from the, from the people that you're resourcing in the world that you're living in makes you both a really powerful non-servi like you provider or service provider because you're sharing those live lived experiences, but it's also a little bit extra in terms of your own security and and well-being and resilience to stay in the work.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Did you, did you struggle to haveI, I, I, I, an outlook, even if it was a pos did you struggle to have an outlook, let alone a positive outlook.

You know, I think, and I don't, I've talked to a lot of my, my, um, community members and colleagues in the LGBTQ community that are maybe 1015 years older than me, and I always thought I'm just not somebody who can even picture anything in my life 5 to 10 years ahead from now. And I always thought that was very unique to me. The more I learned about queer theory and LGBTQ populations, I think generally kind of ourExistence on this planet and the constant historical framework and trauma around the questioning of our identities and HIV and all of the things that surround our community that it's not abnormal for LGBTQ folks to not see a future for themselves. Um, I think that's changing now in younger populations because of representation and visibility, um, but I, I, you know, I think a mix of myself not actually ever being able to picture anything in the future when I was younger.Um, but also maybe just part of being in that community and not seeing myself in the future.

Right. You know, from our own experience with uh our Queer Money podcast, which is, is over 9 years old, and the number of individuals we have interviewed, there has been this kind of common thread of, I don't necessarily think that much about planning because I don't think I'm going to be around and you know, and I think you.mentioned the HIV AIDS crisis. I think that there's a strong tie to that, this kind of limited outlook that our community has had. And it has, has actually even trickled through to today. I had a uh an exchange with a young man on TikTok on on on our comments, and he basically alluded to this idea that he didn't need to save for retirement that he would eitherdie prematurely or he himself was going to end his life because he didn't, wouldn't have the money to be able to retire. And it's it is kind of a, a fatalistic outlook that some in our community have.

Yeah, I, I, I agree with that totally. And even thinking about, you know, positive representation in media, there's not many stories where a queer person just gets to be queer and successful, and there, there's always some sort of trauma associated with their story. And even in leading HMI I get every day to see these beautiful, resilient, amazing young people, but the way I have to communicate why we do what we do to donors is that they're 4 times as likely to attempt suicide.Right, you know, so there's like this this balance ofThe perception of who we are in community and our resilience and community versus actually who we are, and I think each of us individually tries to navigate that in a really challenging way.

Right. And you said you think that's kind of changing a little bit. Why do you think that is? Can you give us some indications so maybe we can feel a little bit better?

Yeah, I mean, I, I do think current contexts aside, um, I do think thatYou can just see people who are like you more visibly and more present in leadership positions, um, in media, doing good things in organizations like HMI. I mean, I'm, uh, I'm, I just turned 45 and I remember growing up and being in college and I went to college in Tennessee, and it was like, do you think she is? Do you think she is?Um, and it was just all these like whisperings of and not ever being able to have an open conversation, and I think the thing that's great now is that at organizations like HMI and then companies like Yahoo andAll over the world, it can be an open conversation. How are you and your spouse saving? Are you thinking about having kids? How are you approaching that? And before, it was something you had to figure out on yourself without a wealth of resources on the internet or anything like that. So now I just think there's volumes of information it's just sorting through to make sure that it's positive and correct.

Absolutely, absolutely. So what for your story, what eventually, what was the trigger point that made you start to look at your finances differently and to come up with a strategy that you could build financial, uh, uh, security and maybe even abundance in your own life?

Yeah, so I think I would, I would say it's likely when I turned 30, which is when I moved to New York City from Tucson, Arizona, um, and I think it was a couple of different factors. One is just economies of scale, right? And entry level or mid-level salary in Arizona is nothing near what it is in New York City, neither are living expenses.Um, but I just felt like I was playing in a completely different ballpark, and I was playing in a completely different ballpark across the country from any family. Um, so do it, it really felt for the first time and, you know, I had extended family in, in on the east coast, but it really felt like for the first time I was like, OK, you're doing this by yourself. Dad can't come and help you fix out something at the mechanics uh down the street. And so, um,It really, I think was a moment in my independence, but also just being going from a Tucson salary to an Arizona salary, and what was relatively a lateral move felt like, whoa.

Yeah.So how do you think someone could apply that experience to their own life? Maybe especially if they don't necessarily have the opportunity to go to a bigger city.

Yeah, I mean, I think anytime you're thinking about career growth and promotions, and if you were surviving on less, but you're making more, there's an opportunity there, um, I think also.Younger and younger, I mean, and, and I remember this in myself, people are looking for independence and part of that means long term independence, um, and not just kind of instant gratification. My, my parents always used to tease me about, you don't have to have everything right now. Um, and so I think, uh, you know, being able to make some decisions as your career grows, um, you know, side hustles are super a thing, even in the nonprofit sector, people are consulting and doing stuff on the side andLooking at that less as pocket money or spending money and more as savings.

Yeah, you know, it's, it's common when someone moves to a new city, they see their out there maybe see their salary increase or even when they're, if they don't move to a new city, but especially a move from Arizona to New York, you, you saw your salary increase.It's very tempting to say, OK, I've got all this extra money, I'm gonna spend it on this, this and this and this, and all of a sudden lifestyle inflation happens. Is there something that you did that helped you to tame that a little bit?

You know, I think I moved to New York at a very interesting time. I moved here. I moved to Long Beach, New York, um, probably 3 months before Hurricane Sandy hit.And so I was in this moment where the world wasn't like New York wasn't like, let's experience and then let's do it. It was like, oh, you just lost everything, and your neighbors have lost everything. And so it it was just a really kind of like what matters moment. Um, I don't want to say I was lucky because it was not a great experience, but I was lucky that I didn't have this, oh, there's so much to do in this moment, um, because of

that. Hold that thought, Amy, and we'll be right back after these messages.

Welcome back to Living Not So Fabulously. We're continuing our interview with Amy Harkleroad. It's unfortunate that it seems like there is a, oftentimes the media, but even within our own community, there is a a temptation to, to be extra about everything in our lives and, and oftentimes that extraness causes us to spend a lot more money and many of us spend more money than we actually have, end up in debt.

Yeah, well, and there's like a a very black and white even with the the name of the the podcast, right? Like you're either fabulous or you're not, um, and so how are you definingfabulous?

Exactly, yeah, we need to maybe reframe that just a little bit.And with that we're gonna, we're we're gonna pivot just a little bit and talk about the work that you're doing. Um, a question that David and I have had for a long time, and I don't know that we're ever gonna be able to wrap our head around it, but why do arguably, according to some studies, the LGBTQ+ community has a purchasing power of $1.4 trillion.That is a lot of money, and we could do a lot of good with that money, even if we just spent 1% of that on nonprofits, on electing politicians who would have better service, the list can go on. Why do you think so many social services organizations struggle financially when we have all this, I guess, dual income, no kids income?

Yeah, I mean, I think it it's a couple reasons, and I can even just go back historically. HMI was started in 1979, and we actually in that moment there was wealth in our community and it was considered um if an adult had given money to our organization because our identities are so oversexualized and who we are, you would, you were considered a pedophile.Um, and that there was less than good intentions in supporting our communities. I think there's a little bit of that there still, um, in.communities that kind of grew up for that. Um, the other piece of it is that there are so many nonprofits, like when you look at just the scale of the industry, it's the 3rd largest employer in the in the US economy.

There's so much to unpack there, and we only have so much time, but I'm, I'm curious then, does that maybeBut how do we become more efficient to therefore become more effective? Does that mean maybe all the nonprofit leaders need to get together and figure out how do we like coalesce and maybe trim some of the fat and work together better, or do you, what do you what suggestions would you have? You're the expert.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a few things and, and in the, it's also varying on the nonprofit sizes, right? Like I think the model of an HRC versus uh an HMI right? Like when you look at all the things in HRC or an ACL you can do in terms of their size and their capacity versus a small community-based organization.I think the smaller community based organizations that have stayed through a longer period of time always do that, partner with organizations, um, in terms of service delivery and in terms of providing service to their community, but I kind of grew up in nonprofits on the fundraising side and we're all competing for the same money to do it.And so there's not the last time that there was just money in mass for LGBTQ populations to do all the things they need was in the HIV crisis. Um, and so that was just help the community figure out what it needs. But now, in order to serve our community, which are whole people that have all of the needs that people have, you're having to figure out how to get housing money, how to get mental health money, how to get education money, how to getFood money, all of the different things, and we're all competing for that. And so part of it is being able to work together and be like, OK, in this moment, this is our lane, this is going to be your lane. How do we work together? Um, I think the smaller ones have been doing that for a very long time. And then also as funders, understanding at all public and private levels of funding.Understanding that the bigger an organization you fund, the more overhead is being taken out by that organization, and if they're partnering with an organization like HMI or something, a smaller organization, that at least 20 or 30% of that gift is being taken to manage the gift before it even gets to direct service providers. And so I think there's a right sizing opportunity, because we don't have a lot in the middle. We have huge and we have very small.Um, and so I think it's, it's not right sizing the efficiency, but we all need to be kind of closer to the middle.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Do you think that um there's a, there is a lot of public display of corporations and large donors giving, um, and I remember one time we were having a conversation with a uh with uh a nonprofit leader, and she said to us, the most important gifts that we get.are the ones of individuals who give us a little amount every single month. But that doesn't seem to be a conversation that's talked about a lot with our community. Do, do you think that we lean too heavily in our community on some of these large organizations or public companies and say, OK, they're the ones who are taking care of the dollars that our community needs, and that maybe lets us off the hook a little bit.

I, I think to some degree, um, I think also good donors are savvy investors and ACLU and the huge organizations have so much visibility and so much known credibility. And so when you think about how you're investing, there's not a, a service that's readily available for everybody unless you have a huge philanthropic purse, um, to say HMI is not gonna, it's not have a scam, they're not spending the money on trips, they're not doing whatever, right? And so,Um, it's really kind of based on your own experience. You happen to serve dinner, you have a friend that connects you. And so smaller organizations, we just don't resource the marketing and visibility of our brand in that way. And so I think we're lesser known, which hurts us in the number of donors we have and and the regularity. I do think that the monthly donor, which a lot of organizations called sustaining donors, um, are so important to have because in, in this moment right now, if I could count on.A substantial amount of money every month from a cash flow perspective, the way that all of the other moneys come in becomes less of a risk in terms of the operation of of an organization like ours.

That's exactly what that executive director said was, if I can predict, if I know that I'm gonna get X amount of dollars, $25 every single month from 1000 people, then I can.Plan better. I can, I can have more impact, um, so yeah, pretty much said the same thing. Yeah.

It's unfortunate that that's not happening, and I think that that's probably one of the reasons why we see so many individuals who work in the social services with modest incomes and modest is probably not even struggling incomes is more like it, right? What advice would you give to those individuals who are working in these organizations when it comes to their own personal finances?

Um, I mean, and I, I guess I would start perhaps giving advice to my peers in those nonprofit sectors. You know, I've been in the role of CEO for about a year and a half, and I've been with EHMI since 2017. And when I started as CEO we had this opportunity to kind of like re-evaluate our whole benefits package and the value that you can add to your place of work, but to your finances and the finances of others is like, do the match. Like don't throw the event.Do the match, increase your match, um, you know, add extra benefits that that support your community, um, and a lot of the time those are the choices, like, well, I can spend this much to go to an event and get a venue downstairs and make money, or I can spend this much to support staff and then talk about it, um.Don't, you know, I think a lot of us have maybe shame about talking about money when we're in the nonprofit sectors because we don't have a lot of it, and we feel like we're ill equipped to have those conversations. But who better to have it with than other people that are in that space? Having it with all of our wonderful partners that are coming from, you know, Deloitte or Moody's or Bloomberg that are saying we'd love to come in and, you know, teach a lesson on financial literacy. It's, you know, it to us or to our young people, they're like, we're not even in the same.Solar system.

Interesting. Yeah, that's that that makes a lot of sense. So in a recent message of yours, you emphasized the importance of love and acceptance for queer and trans youth specifically. How does HMI plan to foster these values in its programs and outreach going forward, especially considering the current climate we're all um trying to survive in?

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's um just continuing to provide services as some of these larger organizations are shuttering services because of federal freezes or cuts. Those folks need services. They continue to need services and so coming to a place like HMI where you can be in community, you can be in community with caring queer and trans adults, um, carrying queer and trans volunteers, supporters that are coming in, and any opportunity that we have to create community.Um, you know, online, in our space, we will do that. And I feel very, very lucky that we have so many folks that ferociously protect our young people, like they are their own children. So, um, we are very lucky in that perspective, but I think more people need those spaces in those communities.

Um, so David, in closing, what thoughts do you have?

Well, one of the things that Amy, I, I, I really appreciate that you shared is this idea of having those conversations with your peers.Which is something that John and I have always asked the community to do, is to please have money conversations. We need to break down this taboo, and you, you bring up a really good point that um sometimes having the conversation.Coming from uh an outside organization, someone who is not even in the same solar system as which I think is the words you used, it it it it is disarming or maybe even uh you get defensive and say they they don't understand. And I think that's why it's important to have these kinds of conversations with our peers. What little thing are you doing that's helping you?or what mistake did you make? That's one of the things that this whole, this show is about is sharing those kinds of things so that we can have a more fabulouslife.

Yeah, I, I feel like so many times we have a conversation with someone and it goes back to, we just need to talk with our peers about money. And we're not necessarily everybody's peer, right? Amy's not necessarily everybody's peer, but all of ourWhoever our peers are, we need to have those conversations. But I'll also add, I think Amy, you're, you're a great example of somebody who does do a lot of good, who is in the social, uh, social services space and has been able to figure out a way that you can at least achieve financial security and it's, and I get the impression you're on your, your way to at least financial abundance by the time you retire, which says a lot for, for the.and the effort that you put in um to not only the community but in your own life, which we need to all worry about filling up our own cup before we give too much to others.

Yeah, so thanks for tuning in. Catch new episodes of Living Not So Fabulously every Wednesday at noon Eastern on Yahoo Finance.com, YouTube, or wherever you binge your favoritepodcasts.

And remember to like, subscribe where available and send notifications because it might help you retire fabulously, even if Social Security gets dosed. And until next time, stay fabulous.

This content was not intended to be financial advice and should not be used as a substitute for professional financial services.