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Now, finance continues its coverage here at the Milken conference in California. Of course, education very much in focus here on the ground. I had a great conversation with Apollo Global Management CEO Mark Rowan. Said saying he would like to see changes to higher education. Of course, I also had a conversation with Pershing Square, CEO Bill Ackman telling me he would like to see changes in the education system. Bill has been very vocal on that. Let's bring in a very special guest, someone at the heart of a lot of these things you are seeing regarding higher education. That is education secretary, Linda McMahon. It's so good to see you. Thank you, Brian.

Thank you, Brian.

Thank you for doing this. I know you're very, very busy. So, we've got a lot to talk about. Okay. Let's go.

Okay. Let's go.

Um look, this is a new role for you. Uh I remember when you were leading leading WWE CEO. You grew that company overseas with new programming. But now that well you're almost two months into this role, the president has tasked you with winding down your job in this department. Uh has the president made the right call now that you're in here two months. What have you seen and what exactly will you be working on next?

It is. The right call in terms of closing down.

Shutting down the department.

Absolutely. He's made the right call. Uh there is so much waste uh in the Department of Education, but more than that, the Department of Education is very duplicative in a lot of things it does. But a lot of people have the misperception that the Department of Education chooses curriculum, maybe hires teachers, or decides what books to purchase for different studies. We do none of that. The Department of Education really is a body that takes money that is appropriated by Congress, funnels through the department. It is then distributed to the states and we also then control competitive grants based on appropriations from Congress and also make sure that policy is implemented in the states. But we don't, you know, control what education goes on in the states and I think as does the president, that the best education is that that happens closest for the child. That is in control by parents, teachers, local administrators, not bureaucrats in Washington. And so he truly does believe that we will see our performance scores go up if we make sure that the money that is going through this bureaucracy then all of it goes to the kids.

What is the timeline to closing this department?

Yesterday? No. Well, I'm not. Yesterday, it's still open. You're still here. Well, I I do think, you know, he has a four-year term. He clearly wants to see it done before then. Uh and so we just we're just working our plan. I think there's a lot that we can do in a couple of years, but um Congress eventually has to vote on shutting down the Department of Education because it was set up in statute by Congress. So my goal is to work with Congress to have as much transparency as possible and to show them that by giving to the states best practices and tools that we have learned through independent testing that we're doing, other states' models that are having success that Congress will understand that students will be better served by this program than one that is trying to be operated from Washington D.C.

Is this is it getting it closed this year possible? And that I hope it doesn't sound ridiculous because you have the support in Congress. When you talk to lawmakers, are they saying, "Yes, Secretary, we can do this, we want to do it quickly."

Some of them are saying a couple of bills have already been introduced to close the department. But you know, there are things in the works, things are in progress. You have to wind down and I don't think it can be done this year, but it could very well be done in the following year.

Fascinating.

We're we're really we're really working hard to do that because as soon as we can get more funds to states and in their hands to go to students, I think that's the best thing.

We've certainly been following and I've talked to a lot of CEOs here about what is happening between the administration uh and how it's approaching colleges, whether it's Harvard, Columbia. Where do things stand right now? Most specifically, I guess, with Harvard.

Well, with Harvard, you know, we we have been in conversations with Harvard. I personally spoke with Dr. Alan Garber, who's the president of Harvard, before any letters or anything went out. I told you what some of our concerns were uh and that we'd be sending a letter. We sent a letter. Their response was to file a lawsuit. Uh one of one of the provisions of the lawsuit was based on First Amendment rights and I've I've made it very clear. Nothing that we are doing is to uh have any kind of infraction relative to First Amendment rights. These are civil rights that we're talking about. With anti-Semitism that's on campuses and Harvard has really not done much over the past few years. I mean, they've had encampments, they've had uh you know, they've had protests, but I mean dangerous protests, ones that that really did put lives maybe in danger. And so, yeah, you put out a very pointed letter.

It was a pointed letter. Um one quote that stood out to me. You said Harvard quote has made a mockery of this country's higher education system. What have they done, specifically?

Well, you know, Harvard really began as one of the most and has been for years one of the most prestigious universities in the country. Uh but we have challenged, you know, their acceptance policy for students. I mean, when they have to have a remedial course for students coming in and beginning algebra, what are their standards of admittance and how have they lowered them in order to allow those students in? They're not allowing on meritocracy uh and that's one of the things that we're challenging that they are that they're not obeying the Supreme Court in the Harvard versus, you know, versus Harvard case. Uh and so that we're we're challenging them to obey the law and uh and to and to treat education, you know, with the right kind of debate that there should be with bringing in good students, having the kind of innovation that they've always had. But at the same time, we're we're actually saying, you have almost $53 billion dollar endowment and the question from many taxpayers come to why should taxpayer money be going to these elite universities for research or whatever it is they're doing when they have donors that provide so much money to the universities? Taxpayers shouldn't be bearing a lot of that burden. And if you've had students who get student loans to go to Harvard and they can't measure up to the education at Harvard and they don't they don't graduate, and they're in default on those loans and taxpayers again are on the hook. So, those are a lot of things and we're asking Harvard, do you vet students that are coming in from foreign countries? Do you know what their backgrounds are? Are they activists who come in and and create some of this unrest on campus? Do you vet some of the teachers who come in to teach ideologies that are uh you know, not part of what we would like to see, not we, the Department of Education, but the country would like to see being taught.

Harvard and President Garber seem very dug into their view, as you can imagine. Will the administration simply cut off funding to get the changes it needs to see at Harvard?

Well, the president has indicated in my letter indicated uh that they will get no more grants from the federal government. So, not so that's where we stand right now.

The president, Garber, said that would have a chilling effect on higher education. What do you think he means by that?

Well, I'm not quite sure because uh maybe the chilling effect is they have to dip into their own coffers, you know, for for support instead of using taxpayer money.

How would you grade what Columbia has done? They seem to at least be open to some of the changes you were that you brought to the table.

Yes. And I Columbia was the first university I met with. I met with the then acting president. Uh she then stepped down and returned to teaching in the Medical College. Then I met uh with I'm not sure if I physically met or just had two phone calls with the next president and we've had very, very good conversations. They realized that they had a real problem with anti-Semitism on campus. I mean, when you see students barricaded in a library and others banging on the glass wall yelling, "Death to USA, death to Israel." and being afraid to come out and walk across campus, clearly something has to be done, you know, about that. So, uh then we you know, we sat down with the criteria that we thought could be aggravating that situation and some of the things that I just talked about with the letter to Harvard and they we've been negotiating back and forth and hopefully we will have some resolution there with Columbia.

Now, Harvard has said that um pulling back on on funding for research would hurt America. Do you agree with that?

I don't because I think there are other ways to fund their research. That's not saying that they don't do quality, excellent research. Many of our universities do from all over the country. So, the goal is really not to shut down research, the goal is to say, "How are you utilizing your dollars and spending your endowments and doing your fundraising and not, you know, necessarily teaching in the way that the entire community is served."

Madam Secretary, you're you're very busy. You've got a lot of things going on outside of the Harvard and Columbia stuff, but also now focusing on student loans. Yes. Talk to us about the ramifications of tying, you know, loans. If I take out a loan and I can't pay it back by X number of date or time over a series of years that my college gets penalized and what would be the impact to education for that?

Yes.

Well, I think it would be great if colleges did have some skin in the game because do you realize that a student loan, you probably know this, I've learned this that a student loan is based on whatever that college or university says is the cost of attendance. So, if one college says it's $80,000 a year, that student can borrow up to $80,000. Now, that student may be in a program and graduate with a degree that they could never earn enough money to pay back the student loan. But if a university has some skin in the game, they're going to advise that student that this is not the right university for you or they're going to start bringing down the cost of college and I think that's uh that's that's a worthy goal.

Does it keep children out of college because you know, they they I think back to myself, I didn't have much money when I went to school and I had a basic belief that I would get a great job to pay back those loans, but some people don't. Is it would this keep people out of going to get a college degree?

Right.

Well, let's look at that for a second. Are college degrees necessary for all professions today? And I don't think so. I think there are some clearly. You want to be a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, you've got to go and you've got to put in the time, but I do believe more now in skill-based learning. I think that students in middle schools and high schools who go to college because maybe their parents said, "Well, you really need to go to college in order to make a good living." whatever and and yet they don't have to. They can do other kind of schooling, get right into the workforce and I think that's an important cultural rethink that we should have relative to education, but I we don't want kids who really want to go to college to be prevented from going to college, but I think they just have to be realistic about where they could go. And I would like to see even on our FAFSA, which is the federal aid for students, you know, applications that at some point there would be a a block on that, because you're filling it in electronically, that would come on and say, "For your degree and for the job that you would be likely to get and these are the pay schedules, this college is too expensive for you to apply to. Here are some others." So, I think there are different ways to look at higher education.

Did you sign up for all this? Are you having fun in this role?

Well, I tell you, I think it's incredibly important. And when the president told me that he wanted a business executive and a leader to take over and do what he needed to do, he said, "I need someone who's thoughtful about it, but who is an executive and a leader." I said, "And I think," he said, "You fit the bill."